Recently, someone on my consumer awareness site Pink Truth asked about United First Financial. I did some quick research and came to the conclusion that it was a typical multi-level marketing scheme… basically a pyramid scheme that relies on the continuous recruitment of new members. I didn’t think another thing about the company.
But a fellow blogger on the personal finance site WalletPop recommended the company today and I couldn’t believe it, so I had to do some research again. She promoted United First Financial as a program that is “the debt snowball on steroids.” She spent $3,500 to sign up for their “program” to help her reduce her debt.
So what did I find today? United First Financial is a multi-level marketing company which depends upon the endless recruitment of new members. They sell their $3,500 program to people who can least afford it, and it’s not worth the money. The name sounds vaguely familiar and legitimate, doesn’t it? I’m quite sure that’s part of the scheme.
I began my research with the company’s website. They’re a little different from other MLM schemes in that they don’t mention the “business opportunity” on the main site. I think they’re trying to keep that part a little hush-hush. In searching other sites, I found many people who were questioning whether or not it was an MLM. It is, but it seems that fact is supposed to not be widely quoted.
The company seems to get credibility from articles in industry publications. In reality, those articles are nothing more than fluff pieces meant to market the company. None of the articles offered a critical look at what they’re selling or who they’re recruiting.
UFF has a sales force with no expertise in anything. You can be a representative for the company and not be trained or educated about it. Their disclaimer says: “United First Financial, its agents and subsidiaries provide Internet web based software and support services. United First Financial does not provide accounting, tax, legal, real-estate, mortgage, or investment advice.” So the representatives know nothing about anything, but they’re going to help you reduce your debt? (Update: There are apparently some licensed individuals who are representatives for the company, but there are no qualifications required.)
So what is this $3,500 system you’re supposed to buy? It’s called the Money Merge Account System (MMA). You get access to a software package that tells you what bills to pay when. The key? Finding excess cash to put toward debt to get your debts paid off faster. But I just told you that for free! You don’t need a computer to tell you that if you make a consistent effort to pay more toward your debts, they’ll be paid off faster than if you don’t make that consistent effort.
As part of the program, you use an equity line of credit instead of your regular checking account. This way, when you have extra money, say $1,000, that would have been sitting in your checking account doing nothing…. It is instead applied to reduce your mortgage balance which saves you interest. When you need that $1,000 again, you can get the money back off the equity line of credit. Your debt balance goes back up to where it was before you had that extra $1,000, but you benefit because you saved a little interest while you didn’t need to actively use that $1,000.
That sounds like a good idea, doesn’t it? Yes, in theory. In reality, how many of the consumers signing up for it really understand the process? Do they really understand the risks of this program? Do they understand the drawbacks? It’s more complicated than it needs to be, but mathematically the process can help you pay off your mortgage sooner.
But there are just too many drawbacks to United First Financial.
Here’s a comment I found from a consumer on another site who sat through a UFF presentation:
First, the printed promotional materials stated “Pay off your 30 year mortgage in as little as 6 to 12 years”, “No alteration to your current standard of living”, and “Your 30-year mortgage can now be paid off in approximately 6 to 12 years, with no change to your lifestyle, without increasing your income or monthly mortgage payment or refinancing of your existing mortgage.” Hmm… Sounded too good to be true.
And I was right. THE MATH DOESN’T WORK! I’ll explain.
I just refinanced my house on a 30 year mortgage at 6% interest. How exactly could I pay off my house in 6-12 years without increasing my monthly mortgage payment? Even if my mortgage was at 0% interest and 100% of my payment went to principal, it would still take nearly 14 years to pay it off without increasing my mortgage payment. (Go ahead, do the calculation yourself. Multiply your monthly 30-year amortized mortgage payment not including tax and insurance impounds by 168 months. The answer should be a number slightly higher than your original loan balance. If not, than you may be calculating an interest-only payment or discounted flex payment from and ARM.)
My point is… Interest is interest, whether it’s in a first mortgage or a HELOC. If I have a $100,000 mortgage at 6% and I pull $20,000 off a 6% HELOC to pay down my first mortgage, I still have $100,000 in debt at 6%. It’s now just split between two loans. The idea they promote is that you put your whole paycheck (let’s use $5000 per month as an example) into the HELOC to reduce the balance, then pay for your living expenses out of the HELOC. The HELOC is also used at certain “strategic” times to pay down the first mortgage.
So let’s separate fact from hype. FACT: You might save some interest if your HELOC interest rate is very close to your first mortage interest rate. However, the interest savings only amounts to an average of $10-15 per month using the above example of $5000 per month income. What does that translate to? About 1.5 to 2 years off your mortgage term (paying off your 30 year mortgage in 28 years). That’s a bit different than what they’re promoting.
In the presentation, they passed out a sample report from the software. I filtered through the numbers that they gave (paying off a 30-year $150,000 mortgage at 6.5% interest in 8.4 years). The mortgage payment was listed at $850 per month (which should have actually been closer to $950). They even make the reports difficult to read, but here’s how they arranged to pay off that mortage in 8.4 years: They took $5000 in monthly income and applied $2845 per month toward the “system” (note that the amount is three times the original 30-year amortized payment). My first question is, how exactly do you triple your mortgage payment “without altering your current standard of living” and “without increasing your monthly mortgage payment”?
Now here’s the good part: Let’s take that original loan amount of $150,000 at 6.5% interest. The MMA program was going to pay it off in 8.4 years by applying $2845 per month toward the first mortgage and/or HELOC. Now what would happen if we didn’t use the MMA program and just paid $2845 per month toward the first mortgage of $150,000 at 6.5%? Ready for this?… 5.2 years! That’s 3 years faster than using the MMA program, just by simply paying the same amount directly to your first mortgage. But how many people can afford to triple their mortgage payment anyway?
The bottom line is that UFF is in the software business. This system was created from a simple concept (accelerated mortgage reduction) and made extremely complex so the average person couldn’t understand how the numbers really work. Then they make it look like they’re going to save you $100K or more in interest without affecting your lifestyle, so $3500 for a piece of software that’s really worth a small fraction of that seems like a bargain. DO THE MATH! They’re complicating a simple concept to make you think you need to give them $3500 for a piece of software.
And another commenter who actually paid for the system:
I have been going back and forth with this MMA. I have the MMA program for about 5 months. I spent the 3500 to try it for myself because as a Mortgage Professional I wanted to see what it does and can it really help people. I have debate back and forth with Calvin and others on this thread but I also paid attention to what they were saying and I have come to the conclusion that the MMA product as of now is no more than a glorified spreadsheet. I have to see something more than what I am seeing now with this MMA program. So for now I’m on hold with this until further notice. The more I look at MMA the more I say this can be done with a simple spreadsheet. Maybe I’m missing something here but I don’t think so.
The biggest drawback to United First Financial is the $3,500 fee. It is not worth it, and you could accomplish the same thing this program claims to help you accomplish without paying the fee. There are legitimate banking and mortgage products available to consumers that could accomplishe the exact same thing without the fee. Check out this article about “mortgage accelerator loans” from Bankrate.com. This is the concept that UFF is selling, and you can get it for a very small annual fee.
Quite simply… you don’t need fancy software to be able to pay more on your debt. In fact, you should keep your $3,500 and use that toward your debts!
United First Financial wants you to think they’re just like any insurance agency or mortgage broker… just offering a product that’s supposed to help consumers. Like the more successful MLMs out there, they have a “revolutionary” product like nothing you’ve ever seen before.
Other companies sell magic berry juice. UFF sells magic debt reducer juice. But there’s nothing magic about it and you don’t need to spend $3,500 to get it. Stay far, far away from this plan.
16 May 08 at 8:14 am
Yet another case where a little cynicism and financial sophistication would go a long way.
16 May 08 at 8:15 am
Yet I’m being called uneducated and being told to research the product before I form an opinion. A quick bit of the right research shows this use of a HELOC is legitimate but can be done without a $3500 fee to a MLM. How much more research could I possibly need to do? LOL
16 May 08 at 8:22 am
At least you aren’t being called ugly:
http://tinyurl.com/6635b9
16 May 08 at 8:23 am
That’s a link to a Yahoo! stock messageboard regarding a company I disparaged. Gotta love those ad hominem attacks.
16 May 08 at 8:24 am
“magic debt reducer juice” … ROFL
16 May 08 at 8:25 am
If it makes you feel any better, I am regularly called ugly AND fat by MLM lovers. What a world!
16 May 08 at 8:39 am
Well, Tracy, that just goes to show how dumb and unobservant the supporters of MLM are.
16 May 08 at 8:54 am
Michael … maybe if you shaved the beard and got contact lenses?
16 May 08 at 8:54 am
*blush*
16 May 08 at 9:00 am
AC - I think taking beauty advice from random strangers on the interweb is about as foolish as taking investment advice from them. That being said, I don’t currently have the beard (although I’ll probably grow it back because my wife likes it).
16 May 08 at 9:01 am
I was hoping you’d say that Michael, cuz I was thinking “Maybe he likes a beard…. Heck, maybe his wife likes the beard.”
18 May 08 at 8:20 pm
Along the same lines I am starting an MLM company to hep alcoholics quit drinking. I charge them $3500 and anytime they need a beer they don’t go to the store, they buy it from me. Then I’ll start one for crack addicts. This biz model has legs.
28 May 08 at 1:10 pm
I’d rather get the opinion of the Mortgage Professionals that are putting this program on the market. So, I’ve talked to several of them and they’ve had some interesting things to say about the program.
First of all it’s not an MLM pyramid scheme. Some of the younger agents aren’t homeowners yet although they are selling the program. So you don’t have to buy it to sell it. You can be an agent and never recruit a single person into the business if that’s what you choose. You can also buy the program without ever joining the company. Therefore I wouldn’t consider this to be MLM. As far as the pyramid is concerned, it’s not structured that way at all. You don’t place people beneath you, then below them, and on the right side then the left etc. etc. If you choose to recruit someone it’s because you are building a company branch office for yourself. Then, any new business that branch creates, you can earn an override from. You get paid from your efforts. Also, if you aren’t making personal sales, you don’t get paid anything. So, if you thing you can just get in on some level and make money for doing nothing, think again… not possible with United First Financial.
As far as doing it yourself without the software… if you can do it show me that you have done it. Show me your personal results. Show me that you’ve paid off your 30 yr mortgage in less than 15 years without changing your cash-flow.
The software figures out to the day, as to when to send the extra money from the line of credit. It also figures out to the penny how much to send, so that you don’t pay too much interest on the line of credit. If you have another proven way, just show me your publications that give you praise for your program. I did the research. This company is published in Broker Banker Magazine, Mortgage Planner Magazine, Personal Real Estate Investor Magazine, and True Wealth Magazine. Not only published, but they are the cover and feature story in all of them. They are also sponsoring the National Mortgage Broker’s Convention. If they were not held in such high regard, they would not have such good credentials, nor would they be able to be a sponsor at this event.
Oh yeah… if you are a customer and do not like the results you are getting at anytime, you get a 100% refund of your money and they let you keep the program for life.
So, for anyone who hasn’t educated them self about the company, please do so before you write your terrible blogs about a great company that you know nothing about.
Please research what the Federal Trade Commission, the Better Business Bureau, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have to say about them. If it’s a scam I’m sure you will find hundreds of complaints and lawsuits sense they have well over 50,000 customers.
28 May 08 at 1:20 pm
Brian - You’re free to listen to anyone’s opinion. That’s what’s fantastic about this country. You’re also free to waste $3,500 if you like. But I’m giving you an opportunity to save almost $20k on your mortgage FOR FREE. I’m not charging you a cent for this advice: Place that $3,500 on your mortgage. That will save you $20k in interest.
Now, you may not understand what an MLM is. MLMs don’t “require” anyone to recruit anyone else. But you’ll do it if you want to make the “real” money. (Whatever of it there is to be made). You can call it a “branch” if you like, but it’s still part of an MLM. Changing the names/words doesn’t change what it is.
Doing this (paying off your mortgage early) without the software only requires simple math. PAY EXTRA EACH MONTH. You tell me how fast you want to pay it off, I tell you how much extra to pay each month. No need to change your cash flow either. Just take money that you would spend on other things and apply it to your mortgage. Same cash going out, just as UFF has you do.
The magazines you cite, unfortunately, produce marketing pieces. These are not dedicated to any critical thinking or investigative report. Just marketing.
And have you read the guarantee with this product? The only way you will qualify for the refund is if you have followed the recommendations of the program exactly. Deviate from the path in the least (even for the good) and you’re not going to get your money back. Surely you’re intelligent enough to recognize a worthless guarantee?
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the product. Unfortunately, the FTC and other government bodies are overloaded with work and can’t (or choose not to) go after each and every scam or deception that is out there. There are thousands of companies in the U.S. making false claims, but there simply isn’t enough time or power to go after all of them. Plenty of bad and fraudulent companies operate without any government intervention.
Thanks for your participation!
28 May 08 at 1:22 pm
Remember too… you say you want the opinion of people who are “putting this product on the market.” Do you think they’ve got an independent opinion of the product when they stand to profit from the purchase of it? Because I’ve got nothing to gain (monetarily or otherwise) from investigating and reporting on this product. Nothing at all… other than some interesting discussions on my website.
03 Jun 08 at 7:24 pm
This is interesting.
I sell advertising for a living and I called up a UFF agent to see if they were interested in advertising ( I didn’t know exactly what the company was). He said he was interested in advertising and wanted to meet with me, but he wanted to present his product to me as well.
We met (him and another lady) and they gave a great presentation.
(Even though it was very obvious that the girl was desparate for the sale).
I was convinced that this was a great program and I wanted to start as soon as possible. I am getting married in a week and a half. My fiance and myself are very very busy people and work a lot, but we can be poor at managing our money, so I thought this would be a great idea.
However, being the halfway intelligent person that I am :)…..I am sitting here tonight doing searches on google to find blogs and articles such as this to help me make my decision before I sign. I think the decision is made…I am finding more bad reports than good.
I definitely had my doubts because usually when something sounds too good to be true it usually is. It also made me really nervous to take out another 10,000-20,000 loan! It was suggested to me that if I could, take out up to 20,000. In the back of my mind I have been thinking to myself, “Why would I take out that large of a loan to “save” money.” It was a really odd concept to me after I gave it logical thought.
The weird thing, however, was that one of their references was the company of who did my mortgage and who I really trust. I have been trying to get in contact with him the last couple of days, but haven’t heard back from him yet. I will be interested to see what he has to say and I will post when he does.
Thanks for the info.
04 Jun 08 at 1:40 pm
I was on the fence also but I am not going to pursue thanks for the input. I woul be interestedin hearing more if more is offered.
04 Jun 08 at 7:23 pm
To add to my comment above…..
I was able to get in touch with my loan officer.
He told me that they had been to his office and gave a presentation. He said that he wasn’t sure what to think of it yet. It seemed to him that it’s just the simple process of paying more per month on your mortgage to pay it down quicker, but he was going to give them the benefit of the doubt for now and see if he could learn more about it and see if there was more involved. He said, ” I would imagine that there would have to be more involved than what I am reading in to it, but I have listened to two presentations and I still haven’t figured it out yet. I will let you know more as I learn, but for now I would wait.” He also thought that the fact that it was a Multi Level Marketing program that it probably isn’t all what it is cracked up to be.
11 Jun 08 at 8:18 pm
Actual research into the math used, beyond reading someone’s negative review of what they thought they understood from a seminar, leads to a different conclusion. First, it is more than putting a little “extra” money on the mortgage. Most people don’t have “extra”, but if they’ve had their house a while they do have equity. Second, opening an equity line is NOT getting a loan - it is opening a line of credit from which you can draw, like a credit card. The software is constantly checking between the HELOC and your mortgage to determine when to make extra payments from the money available in your HELOC - quite a bit more sophisticated than a spreadsheet - something I have quite a lot of experience in since I’ve been a working engineer for over a decade.
As one poster said - show the results if you are doing this on your own. If there is MLM related with it, so what? If you just want the product, buy it and use it. There are now over 60,000 people using this to pay down their mortgages, and the research I’ve found shows that most of them are ahead of their initial projected rates.
Why knock the guarantee. The program won’t work if you don’t do what the program says to do. That’s the whole point. If you put all of your info in it, but then don’t follow it’s instructions, you must not be expecting it to work.
Here’s a real news report about it - NOT just marketing magazines for the program: *****You’re linking to a company-produced presentation - nothing real about that!****
13 Jun 08 at 8:49 am
Eric,
Thanks for the comedy.
“First, it is more than putting a little “extra” money on the mortgage. Most people don’t have “extra”, but if they’ve had their house a while they do have equity.”
Which UFF agents exploit by using that equity to have the client open a HELOC and pay the $3500 fee.
“Second, opening an equity line is NOT getting a loan - it is opening a line of credit from which you can draw, like a credit card.”
A loan is debt. A used HELOC is debt. A used credit card is debt. It’s all debt.
“The software is constantly checking between the HELOC and your mortgage to determine when to make extra payments from the money available in your HELOC - quite a bit more sophisticated than a spreadsheet - something I have quite a lot of experience in since I’ve been a working engineer for over a decade.”
The MMA is a shell game, shuffling debt from the mortgage to the HELOC, making it appear like the software is doing something amazing. It isn’t. From UFF published examples, it even sucks at determining what payments to make and when, and any engineer would be able to tell you that at a glance. As long as the minimum monthly HELOC balance is above $0, this HELOC shuffle game is not optimal. UFF examples aren’t even close.
I doubt you are an engineer. I don’t know any engineers who would be sucked in by the UFF spiel or be unethical enough to sell the MMA.
Craig
23 Jun 08 at 2:03 pm
I’m a professional real estate investor. I make a living buying houses, fixing them up and turning them into rentals. Managing debt is a huge part of my business and my livelihood. I’ve been doing this for 6 years, and the housing crunch hasn’t slowed down my business, because I analyze every deal based on risk, cash flow and future appreciation prospects.
This is a scam and a pyramid scheme. All this is is HELOC arbitrage, and the $3500 software fee is unnecessary.
One key component of this is the assumption that paying down mortgage debt is a good thing. For most people, it is not. Paying off mortgage debt is like putting your cash into a savings account that you cannot withdraw from.
Please consider talking to a financial advisor before embarking on any prepayment mortgage program. Instead of investing your cash in paying down your mortgage, I recommend putting that cash into an investment vehicle that suits your needs (stocks, bonds, real estate). This way, your money has a chance to appreciate.
24 Jun 08 at 6:19 pm
Since another of the author’s articles refers to Dave Ramsey and his methods, I’d point out that he would totally disagree with you on this, “One key component of this is the assumption that paying down mortgage debt is a good thing. For most people, it is not. Paying off mortgage debt is like putting your cash into a savings account that you cannot withdraw from.” This stems from the mentality that people understand how to invest (land, stocks, etc). What they CAN invest in is the equity in their home, and cutting out $100K or more in interest. You do mention real estate as an investment vehicle - how is one’s own home not that?
24 Jun 08 at 9:43 pm
Eric,
Your response to my post, as well as your post above use faulty logic and are factually incorrect. I was tempted not to justify your post with a response, but since your points are so easy to tear apart, I’m going to do just that.
Paying down debt is not an investment, as you propose in your post. Investment is buying something in the hopes of future appreciation. Take an example of someone who is paying 7% interest. Subtracting the tax benefit of paying mortgage interest, the ‘real’ interest rate is only 4.5%. As long as that person can find another investment vehicle (perhaps through a financial advisor as I suggest) that yields in excess of 4.5%, they should always use that money to invest instead of to pay down the mortgage. It’s simple math. Bonds yield more, stocks yield more in the long run. Leveraged real estate deals yield a lot more, but those require expertise like what i;ve built up with my partners over the years.
You’re obviously involved in the UFF scam. It’s pretty sad and pathetic that you’re stealing people’s money through this ponzi scheme.
25 Jun 08 at 9:07 pm
Matt,
You are mistaken, as others have been. It is so easy to assume someone is “involved” with something online when they don’t agree with your points. I am NOT involved with UFF. I have looked at the program and considered using it. I’m on a fact-finding mission.
ALL of the arguments against it are of the nature you have shared (ignoring the knee-jerk, “it’s MLM, it must be a scam, run for your lives” reactions.)
You point out that “Leveraged real estate deals yield a lot more, but those require expertise like what i;ve built up with my partners over the years.” Also that you have to get an investment that will yield more than what the interest pay down would yield (4.5% in your example). ALL of those things require certain things to happen for them to be better than paying off a mortgage - something that can actually be done w/o much extra thought.
What I can’t find are those people who can honestly deny that the ones using the program, and cutting years off their mortgage, are doing something beneficial. All of this “keep the mortgage, use your extra somewhere else” smacks of “you’re going to have a car payment anyway, why not lease and have something new” mentality. What happened to actually owning things?
The ONLY thing I owe on is my house. IF I could take my 29.5 years remaining on my mortgage, cut that down to 10 years, and then for the next 20 put the kind of money I’m using on my mortgage into investments, etc - like you recommend - how is that not good? I’ve have WAY more money to invest monthly than I do now. I’d also have money for kid’s college (cash) since my child is only 3 months old now.
Also, no matter how many times I provide links to this news report, they disappear. So I’ve yet to hear anyone comment on this:
***** Links to UFF propaganda removed again. All future comments will be deleted in their entirety if you link to UFF advertisements again. *****
04 Jul 08 at 8:47 pm
Interestingly enough there is alot more research done on united first financial than I thought. What i would like to bring to your attention is like Eric said above, there are approximately 60,000 using the MMA. Common sense tells me that I would bet at least half of those people have researched the product as well. Seems to me like you’re calling them stupid. That’s rude.
04 Jul 08 at 8:49 pm
My next guess is the next anti United First Financial person will say something like “Yeah, stupid enough to spend $3,500.” Predictable? Yes.
28 Jul 08 at 1:03 pm
“What i would like to bring to your attention is like Eric said above, there are approximately 60,000 using the MMA. Common sense tells me that I would bet at least half of those people have researched the product as well. Seems to me like you’re calling them stupid. That’s rude.”
I don’t know about “stupid”, but I would call them “gullible”, “too trusting” and “a salesman’s dream”.
The positive research done on UFF was commissioned by UFF. The industry rags that report glowingly on them are small publications with high UFF advertising content. The E&Y award was sponsored by E&Y, not investigated by E&Y.
If the MMA really worked, and I wish it did, it would be huge. Think about it for a second. They’re claiming massive savings. Everyone would be demanding it. It’s been over 2 years.
If you’re right and there are 60,000 clients, that’s not a lot to show for such a “ground breaking” product.
But considering UFF nets $1000 per sale, they’ve made $90 million.
Agents split $2500 per sale (assuming the entire $2500 is paid out). A conservative estimate is 10,000 agents. The mean average agent has made $15,000 on the MMA. Of course, a few agents have recruited well, and are doing great. As with any MLM, most agents are making next to nothing.
This is a bad deal for almost everyone involved, except a few agents and UFF themselves.
11 Aug 08 at 12:54 pm
I got this product and paid $3500. I just found out that my line of credit was suspended due to the home mortgage crisis. I have to pay off my line of credit which is $10,000.00. $3500 for the software and $7500 for the money applied to my mortgage balance. I can no longer use my HELOC until the propergy value in my area goes up. This is sick. I hope no one buys this software. I now have to deplete all of my savings to pay the 10K balance on my HELOC. I am very, very, very sad. If some sees this message, don’t buy this software or get involved with this program. Sincerely.
11 Aug 08 at 9:56 pm
Investments fraud includes FAILURE to DISCLOSE or to tell the WHOLE TRUTH.
Reference the recent Citi, UBS, and Merril settlements for auction rate securities which had been IMO fraudulently sold as “cash equivalents” when those companies knew or should have known those instruments were not reliably cash equivalents over time without their support.
Wow, it’s eerily similar… Do the mma salesman claim a heloc debt is a cash equivalent?… that it’s not a mortgage?… even that it’s not debt? That it’s not risky? That it saves you money in NET? That it pays of your mortgage faster? Do they tell the WHOLE Truth upfront, before they “extract” their $3,500 swindle?
Sometimes the law holds people who assist in furthering the fraud liable even if they did not know about the fraud. There is an imputed duty of care, in that the purveyors of investment schemes are held accountable to known even if they are actually unaware. For example, as a matter of law someone who holds themselves out to be an “Agent” for another is accountable for illegal actions in which they participate even if they are unaware, as a matter of law.
To sustain a claim of fraud, it is required to prove each of the nine elements of fraud:
(1) a representation; (mma saves money)
(2) falsity of the representation; (it does not save money, it is a net financial loss)
(3) materiality of the representation; (money savings is the reason someone buys it – “pay off in less time”)
(4) speaker’s knowledge of the falsity of the representation; (intentional construction of the sales presentation, agent training, and marketing claims and intentional omission of the whole truth from those materials and presentations. Incomplete numerical comparisons that falsely and misleadingly show savings where none in fact exist)
(5) the speaker’s intent it should be relied upon; (they hold it out to be true, sophisticated software, run a simulation of customer’s own data, etc…)
(6) the hearer’s ignorance of the falsity of the representation; (it is somewhat complex financially due to the unnecessary heloc smoke and mirrors, etc… however proof of the falsity is obvious to educated professionals who take care and perform simple numerical calculations)
(7) the hearer’s reliance on the representation; (that’s the prime reason(s) the software is purchased, why else would someone pay $3,500 for “budgeting software” )
(8) the hearer’s right to rely on the representation; and (they are being sold the product by an “agent” who represents the principal.)
(9) the hearer’s consequent and proximate injury caused by reliance on the representation. (loss of $3,500, loss on arbitrage operations, both further compounded over time!)
IMO all 9 elements have been quite clearly satisfied.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/property/smoke-and-mirrors/2004/09/28/1096137225560.html
10 Sep 08 at 1:08 pm
I purchased what was touted to be the “latest and greatest MMA” in May from a member of my church. To this day I do not have the “latest and greatest” version, but the old version which requires moving funds back and forth endlessly. I have contacted the representative and his co-horts and asked for my money back. I was told I could have it——————a month ago. No money yet. Today I received an e-mail saying that my request for a refund had been denied as United First Financial had done nothing wrong. But, I still do not have what I paid for. Has anyone been able to recoup their monies from this company?
10 Sep 08 at 1:36 pm
Carole,
I doubt version 4 will be any easier to follow than version 3. The irony is the only worthwhile transaction you need are the few that are directed to your mortgage. Everything else to do with your HELOC is just a smokescreen.
UFF is under no obligation to refund your money. They only promised that if you have the income and expenses you listed and signed your name to, and if you followed the MMA software directions, the MMA would pay down the mortgage as fast as your report said it would. They really only guarantee that 1+1=2. That I’m aware, the guarantee doesn’t cover upgrades, customer satisfaction, or anything of the sort.
UFF strongly suggests marketing within church groups. Your agent and fellow churchgoer probably knows very little about mortgages - very few UFF agents do. UFF has some very clever marketing that impresses a lot of people. Your agent may still believe that he/she did you a service.
For any hope for a refund, I suggest you contact the Better Business Bureau in Utah. Here is the UFF page there:
http://utah.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=139&bbb=1166&firm=22021100
They are up to 9 BBB cases now, though they have all been “resolved”. I suspect this BBB entry of the parent company is the only one they care about. I doubt UFF will care if you make a BBB complaint against your agent - agents are like human shields to a company like UFF. I believe your only hope is a BBB complaint against the parent company.
Do you have any promises in writing that were broken? Anything that refers to version 4? That will help, as your argument should be that you did not receive what was promised. That either version of the MMA is overpriced, inefficient and more difficult than prepaying the mortgage yourself makes the MMA a terrible purchase, but those points probably won’t get you your money back.
Good luck, and please update us on your progress.
Regards,
Craig Hansen
10 Sep 08 at 2:41 pm
Thanks for the info, Craig. I will contact the Utah BBB and let them know that I have fulfilled my part of the bargain (that being my check!) and that I have not received what I paid for (Will I EVER???) Doubtful. Live and learn, but it is true that they do prey on those whose resources are limited. In my case, this fellow from my church held several “meetings” for teachers in our school district because we “deserved to be the first to know about this VERY fine program.”
I can only hope that the BBB in Utah is on to these people and that is is not the first complaint they’ve seen.
Carole
10 Sep 08 at 2:50 pm
I urge you to NOT GIVE UP. Keep complaining to anyone who will listen until you get your refund!
13 Sep 08 at 9:08 pm
Just another get rich quick, MLM scheme. Google Chad Wickline. He is in this one too.
13 Sep 08 at 9:33 pm
I Googled him, and I see he has already been prosecuted and convicted in another debt elimination scheme, but where is the link to UFF?
16 Sep 08 at 10:02 am
Carole, I feel bad that someone you trusted from your church introduced you to something you found fraudulent. There are so many “schemes” out there that are only interested in your money. I found a list of laws regarding MLMs and it sounds like they were not operating within the laws of a reputable MLM.
Here are the parameters for operation:
You can’t make claims about money you could make until someone is signed up.
Lifestyle claims are illegal.
You have to have a product available with value.
You can potentially earn more than the person above you. (If you can’t then it’s an illegal pyramid scheme)
Front end loading is illegal. (Paying for extra product that you are not going to re-sell just to advance)
Getting paid to recruit others is illegal. (If you are not purchasing the product to use and you are just calling people to get them into the business).
I hope that this helps clairfy for anyone who is thinking of paying for product from an MLM. I have come across people who do some reputable MLM jobs like skin care and kitchen products and scrapbooking items so they are out there. Companies like this one make it difficult for these people to operate their business and make others suspicious about ALL MLMs.
16 Sep 08 at 10:45 am
The fact is, financial scams and MLM’s run riot through congregations like pink-eye at a daycare. You’re even more likely to be hosed by someone from your congregation than you are at an “investor’s club,” which is saying something! Conmen will always seek out a ready collection of trusting suckers. Despite my a-religious nature, one of my closest friends is a very serious Reverend, and such scams and the way they propagate is something that his church has trained it’s ministers to identify and deal with, just as they would with family and personal problems in their parishoners(sp?). In conversation he’s quite spirited and caustic on the impact that such schemes wreak on families and friendships.
16 Sep 08 at 3:09 pm
That just reiterates that you need to do your research on these companies before paying anything out.
Just as someone stated in an earlier post, make sure you do your homework…even if it’s someone from your church. If it sounds too good to be true, it IS.
16 Sep 08 at 4:02 pm
I found this site while trying to get more useful information about United First Financial. Some of the posts have been useful, but some are just negative outbursts.
First of all, I read so many posts that call this a scam. What is everyone’s definition of a scam? Are some people confusing the word “scam” with the word “over-priced”?
For example, I was in an upscale store last week and I saw a women purchasing some newly released designer items. I saw a women’s designer bra with a price tag of $150.00, a designer handbag for $2000.00, and designer shoes for $900.00. All of these items could be purchased at WalMart at a cheaper price. Is this a scam?? These “designer” items are advertised in glossy magazines! Are these designer items really better than the WalMart items? Is the designer store over-charging and scamming their customers?? Are the glossy magazines and the designer store’s salesperson participating in the scam? If a customer buys and then wears a $150.00 designer bra for three days and then attempts to get a full refund, will that customer get her money back? No, probably not.
In addition, is WalMart scamming customers too? Isn’t it possible for us to make our own clothes and shoes and handbags? Can’t we go on the Internet and find FREE instructions on how to make your own bras, shoes, and handbags? Isn’t it possible to find the materials to make these items for a really cheap price? Go to Yahoo or Google and try, it’s easy!! I just really think there is a difference between “scam” and something being “over-priced.”
In addition, “over-priced” could mean “over-priced” to ME, but my neighbor could think the same thing is worth every penny spent.
Everyone seems to agree that anybody with a home loan can send in additional payments in an effort to pay off a home loan faster. That is easy, right!
But what if I send in an extra $300 this year and another extra $1000 next year, exactly how much money in interest will that save me and exactly how much time gets reduced off of my 30 year loan? Who can give me that answer at 8PM on a Sunday night? Who can I call Monday morning and how quickly can my question be answered? Somebody out there, please direct me to someone that can answer my questions, right now TODAY? Give me a phone number to a specific person that will answer these questions for FREE. FREE!
After you give me that phone number, I am going to give that phone number to all of my friends, family, and co-workers. Let’s see how quickly all of the calls get directed into a voicemail. How long before the number gets disconnected and the person disappears. Imagine all of the complaints that will happen as the phone number gets spread to everyone around the United States and people begin to get busy signals and no one responds to hundreds of voicemail messages.
Eventually the person WORKING that FREE info phone number is going to have to charge a fee. If a real, live person isn’t doing the math to figure out the numbers I want, I need to learn on my own how to do it with a mortgage calulator or buy some type of computer program. Just because United First Financial charges $3,500 doesn’t make it a scam. Is it over-priced? Maybe, maybe not…. It just seems like expensive, designer software that costs $3,500.
Somebody mentioned that there is a similar product for far less that $3,500 and therefore the $3,500 is a scam. Let me ask you a question. If you buy a brand new 2009 Ford today and then a week later you see it advertised for $2000 less at another dealer, did your salesperson and your dealer scam you? I really would like to know if the cheaper option is exactly the same as the $3,500 software?
There are price differences for almost everything we buy, but it is up to the consumer to shop around. It is not a scam if the consumer does not shop around, is it?
As for the “money-saving” claims, we already ALL agree that making extra payments will reduce the loan balance, the interest charges, and the length to payoff. In the end, the amount of money saved depends on the amount of extra money the consumer sends in to pay down the loan. Could someone direct me to the location on the United First Financial web site where their “money-saving” claims are NOT TRUE. If somebody wants to keep track of all of that and other credit card payments using $3,500 worth of software, how is that a scam? How else are you going to keep track of it?
As for the home equity line of credit, what is the big deal? People use home equity lines of credit to buy boats, cars, jewelry, fur coats, vacations, pay college tuition, plastic surgery, nose jobs, breast implants, lipo-suction, re-modeling and additions to homes, and many other things! In this situation, somebody is using a home equity line of credit to reduce the interest charges on a homeloan? Hello? So what?!
One of the posts mentioned that agents do not have a license and have no training. A license or training to sell software that keeps track of loans and payments? Everyone is saying how easy it is to do all of this on your own without buying $3,500 worth of software and now somebody says the agents do not have a license or training? A license for what?
Someone else mentioned that the agents do not have the software or have a home loan themselves therefore it is a scam. A gas station clerk can sell diesel gas to a truck driver but not personally own a vehicle that uses diesel fuel. Right? Is the trucker going to ask the clerk if the he/she owns a vehicle that uses deisel fuel? If the clerk says, “No” is the trucker going to say “This is a scam, I am calling the Better Business Bureau?”
Another post mentions MLM. MLM? If it is a legal MLM organization, what is the problem? After the company receives the $3,500 from a customer, who really cares how the money gets divided as long as it is legal. When you buy your groceries everyweek and spend about $150 - $250, what happens to that money? The cashier gets paid minimum wage and the supervisor gets paid more than the cashier and the Store Manager gets paid more with a bonus and the district manager gets paid more with a bigger bonus. Is that a scam?
If I buy software for $3,500 and it keeps track of what I want it to keep track of, should I be afraid because it is being sold by a MLM salesperson?
There was another post that mentioned the Better Business Bureau (BBB). I was so happy to see the link, because I was going to check them out with the BBB. They had 9 complaints and they were all resolved.
I am still confused? Why are people still saying this is a scam? Does it make sense to simply call this expensive, designer software for $3,500?? Is that a better description than scam???
16 Sep 08 at 6:32 pm
LOL @ Kevin… Everything you need to pay off your mortgage in the same amount of time (or less) than UFF will tell you can be done by getting a spreadsheet or software that costs anywhere from $0 to $99. It will tell you at any given time how much longer it will take to pay off your mortgage. If you still think it’s cool to pay $3,500 for something like this (but which is no better, and likely is actually worse) MORE POWER TO YOU. Go for it. You have the freedom to be an idiot if you so choose. That’s the beauty of this fine country I live in.
16 Sep 08 at 7:51 pm
“In this situation, somebody is using a home equity line of credit to reduce the interest charges on a homeloan? Hello? So what?!”
No, the HELOC just gives an illusion of saving interest. It saves, at most, $25 or so per month, and are usually cancelled out or exceeded by the interest on the $3500 fee. The bulk of the savings are from simple prepayment that never needed the HELOC in the first place.
This is the crux of the scam argument - the HELOC or CC used by the MMA have next to nothing to do with the savings - they’re just there to look impressive. The architecture of the MMA is based on a lie.
Lie to get someone to spend $3500? That’s a scam.
“Does it make sense to simply call this expensive, designer software for $3,500?? Is that a better description than scam???”
No, “scam” is a better fit.
16 Sep 08 at 7:56 pm
Kevin makes valid points. There are some people who think that all MLMs are scams and they always will. Those are the people who miss opportunities. They just don’t get it.
In the 80s there were pyramid programs that were outlawed. The laws I stated earlier have to be followed, if they are not, they are penalized. The ones who cannot get past those old pyramid scams are the ones who miss out on some good products from the reputable MLM companies.
Have these people never purchased from an MLM? At all, ever?
16 Sep 08 at 8:00 pm
MLMs basically offer overpriced products. I’ve yet to find one that has anything close to a superior product. The high price isn’t because of something special or high quality. It’s because many levels of commissions must be paid.
MLMs aren’t required to follow laws. Our government has chosen to not act against MLMs that break the laws on the books. And organizations like the DSA lobby heavily to make sure it stays that way.
16 Sep 08 at 8:20 pm
Kevin makes valid points, and predictably, Tracy comes along and says “poor Kevin, you are such a fool.”
Of course I think that response is funny b/c I’ve yet to see anyone post a link to that super duper spreadsheet that can do all of the things the UFF agent showed me with his software. I’ve been creating advanced spreadsheets for years and I’m not sure how to replicate the info in their software.
Also, the strawman argument of “you can just send in extra payments” has never yet stood up. Most people have next to nothing extra at the end of the month in actual cash. BUT, with a HELOC they might be able to send it 3 or 4 times a normal mortgage payment - which makes a MUCH bigger long term dent than $100 or $200.
I’d really love to see a thought-provoking response; something beyond “MLM - run away in horror” and “just use a spreadsheet and send in some extra money.”
16 Sep 08 at 8:27 pm
As you know Eric, you’ve not been permitted to post here because you keep trying to post links to UFF promotional materials. This site isn’t for promotion of MLMs!
But I had to let this one slip through just to show how dummies like you believe in UFF.
You’ve used as an example a consumer with NO EXTRA CASH to send to their mortgage. Then you say that they could use a HELOC to send a bunch of money to their mortgage.
WHY THIS IS IDIOTIC: The consumer will be BORROWING on the HELOC at a HIGHER INTEREST RATE and using that money to pay down their regular mortgage that has a LOWER INTEREST RATE.
IS THAT DUMB, OR WHAT? The consumer is not ahead by doing what you suggest. They get further behind because they are paying a higher interest rate.
I can hear you now: “No, that’s not how it really works.”
YES, THAT IS HOW IT WORKS. And if you believe otherwise, you truly are foolish.
16 Sep 08 at 8:41 pm
MLMs pay direct sellers to promote in introduce their products. This saves them from having to advertise. It also give individuals the opportunity to earn more based on how many people they introduce to the product.
Have you never purchased Avon? Pampered Chef? Mary Kay? Arbonne? Tupperwear? etc?? I don’t believe any of those things are over priced.
16 Sep 08 at 8:41 pm
Eric, if you “send it 3 or 4 times a normal mortgage payment” from your HELOC, you just created a new debt 3 or 4 times the size of a normal mortgage payment.
You’re robbing Peter to pay Paul. With good timing of income and delaying expenses, you might save a few bucks.
UFF are the ones making the extraordinary claims. Let them demonstrate clearly, with all money movements out in the open, how to beat a simple DIY approach.
But first, they need to demonstrate they can beat a simple DIY approach at all. You can find examples of UFF agents losing at Fatwallet, Scam dot com, and most recently:
http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/united-first-financial-money-merge-accounts-scam-or-legit.html
Start reading UFF agent James Barnes’ challenge of August 18th, and JimmyDaGeek’s answer on August 19th. This one is nice because it buries the new “you can’t beat the MMA for multiple debts” claim.
16 Sep 08 at 8:44 pm
Eric,
I also recently posted a conversation I had with a UFF agent and his upline to Scam dot com. In those emails, I used simple (and free) online mortgage calculators to beat the MMA claims, and the agent agreed with my numbers, until it got really embarrassing for him.
http://scam.com/showthread.php?t=46373
16 Sep 08 at 10:25 pm
Tracey,
How are your book sales going? Riding on coat tails.
16 Sep 08 at 11:57 pm
Why thanks for asking Eddy! The book sales are exceeding projections by quite a bit. So I guess that means I’m doing well!
17 Sep 08 at 5:02 am
Craig said:
«But first, they need to demonstrate they can beat a simple DIY approach at all. You can find examples of UFF agents losing at Fatwallet, Scam dot com, and most recently:
http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/united-first-financial-money-merge-accounts-scam-or-legit.html
Start reading UFF agent James Barnes’ challenge of August 18th, and JimmyDaGeek’s answer on August 19th. This one is nice because it buries the new “you can’t beat the MMA for multiple debts” claim. »
Craig also said:
«I also recently posted a conversation I had with a UFF agent and his upline to Scam dot com. In those emails, I used simple (and free) online mortgage calculators to beat the MMA claims, and the agent agreed with my numbers, until it got really embarrassing for him.
http://scam.com/showthread.php?t=46373 »
———–
Craig, these must be two of the most funniest threads I’ve read about the UFF system/scam.
I wonder if anyone still believes in the miraculous capabilities of that bogus software app.
Best Regards,
Pedro
17 Sep 08 at 10:48 am
************************************
Craig wrote @ September 16th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
No, the HELOC just gives an illusion of saving interest. It saves, at most, $25 or so per month, and are usually cancelled out or exceeded by the interest on the $3500 fee. The bulk of the savings are from simple prepayment that never needed the HELOC in the first place.
This is the crux of the scam argument - the HELOC or CC used by the MMA have next to nothing to do with the savings - they’re just there to look impressive. The architecture of the MMA is based on a lie.
Lie to get someone to spend $3500? That’s a scam.
“Does it make sense to simply call this expensive, designer software for $3,500?? Is that a better description than scam???”
No, “scam” is a better fit.
************************************
Kevin’s response……
Thank you for the response Craig. Thank you for everyone’s response too! The responses are greatly appreciated! [I am serious and I am not trying to be sarcastic.] This is really helping everyone take a really deep look at United First Financial and their MMA product.
Does the HELOC really only give an illusion of saving interest? Are we all really understanding the Home Equity Line of Credit (HELOC)? If I am not mistaken, not everyone can get a HELOC, right? A HELOC is NOT a credit card and it really should not be compared to a credit card.
As far as I know, you CANNOT get a HELOC if you do not have EQUITY in your home and then your creditworthiness will be be checked. If you DO have EQUITY in YOUR home, whose EQUITY is it? Is it the homeowner’s EQUITY or the banks EQUITY? It is YOUR equity that you built up over the years from making your loan payment and any appreciation in the value of your home.
Correct me if I am wrong, the bank charges you interest for getting access to YOUR EQUITY in YOUR home. That equity is your money, not borrowed money. The bank will not do a HELOC unless YOU have EQUITY in YOUR home, right? In other words, the equity in my home is MY money and the bank is charging me money to access MY money. Isn’t that charge negotiable especially if my credit is good?
Now, here is where I need help right now. What if I have a HELOC for $30,000 and I want to use it to make a $30,000 payment on my home loan? What piece of software, what spreadsheet, what type of calculator can I use that will show me [in plain English and Simple Math] the advantages and disadvantages? Somebody please tell me. There was a post that said the cost is anywhere from $0 to $99.00, but I did not see info about exactly how to get those inexpensive solutions.
Do you know what I mean? Of course we can get the bank to tell me what happens if I use the entire $30,000 HELOC? The bank will tell me that they would send me a monthly statement with the minimum payment amount due based on the $30,000 HELOC and the interest rate on the HELOC.
However, the problem I would still have is calculating the effects of a $30,000 lump sum payment on my home loan. $30,000 over a few months or a few years has to reduce some of the interest and the time until payoff, doesn’t it? But how much? What are the real numbers? What if the interest rate on my home loan is higher than the interest rate on my new HELOC, isn’t that possible? How do I calculate that? Who is going to show me for FREE or for $99.00?
For just a moment, forget about the HELOC part [even though it is really MY money anyway]. What if I hit the lottery for $48,000 and after taxes, I ended up with exactly $30,000. Then I send a $30,000 payment to my bank to pay down my home loan. How much interest will I save and will I pay off my home loan sooner?
The answer has to be yes, right? I can GUESS that I would save a significant amount of interest, right? Is this an illusion of saving interest? Doesn’t a $30,000 cash payment have something to do with the savings in interest?? How could this be an illusion of saving interest? The only difference between a $30,000 cash payment and a $30,000 HELOC payment are the interest charges, right?
As long as the HELOC interest charges are LESS and you SAVED a significant amount of money in interest charges on the original home loan, then this could possibly make sense. Yes or no? The only way to find out is we have to calculate all of this out, but how do we do it? What do we use?
Here is the BIG question…… What is the easiest way to run these numbers? Can United First Financial and their MMA product.run these numbers? Do not forget this part…… everybody’s situation is different! Different loan amounts, different interest rates, different amounts for the HELOC! I do not think anyone is going to do this for FREE. It has to cost something. It has to, doesn’t it?
In review, the HELOC is YOUR money anyway. You can’t get a HELOC unless you have EQUITY. We really need to know the interest rate on the HELOC and the interest rate on your original home loan. These interest rates should make a big difference, right? How can we make a broad, sweeping statement when we do not know the interest rates. If I am correct, an agent from United First Financial runs an analysis on each potential customer. The homeowner still has to qualify for the home equity line of credit, don’t they?
I do not think that EVERYONE is going to be a perfect fit for the MMA product. I do not see any lies UNLESS United First Financial runs an analysis on a customer and the analysis shows NO SAVINGS POSSIBLE and then the customer is forced to buy the product anyway. Has that happened? If this has not happened, then I just do not see any lies.
A scam would be if EVERYONE was given a HELOC even if they didn’t have equity in their home AND everyone’s loan balance increased EVERY month AND the software was only a blank CD-ROM disc with nothing on it. Now that would be a scam, wouldn’t it? [smile]
I have to ask the question again….. “Does it make sense to simply call this expensive, designer software for $3,500?? Is that a better description than scam???”
17 Sep 08 at 12:01 pm
I just had a few moments to read some of the threads where a UFF was challenged.
I think I am still missing the point. Where is the scam?
In the challenge, the DIY approach beat the numbers from UFF. But wasn’t money and time saved from using the MMA product? It seemed like money and time was saved, but not as much time and money as the DIY approach. The software did what it was supposed to do, right? So where is the scam???
For example, I have the ability to wash and wax my car. However, I could pay someone to wash and wax my car. The local car wash could claim that I could save time and money by getting my car washed and waxed at their car wash for $100.00. Sounds like a good deal to me, right?
Maybe, maybe not. Someone directs me to a web site that says getting your car washed and waxed for $100.00 is a scam……you could do it yourself and put the $100.00 in a savings account and let it earn interest until you retire! The local car wash didn’t tell me I could save $100.00 by doing it myself, so they are scamming me out of my $100.00. Does that make sense?
Would that be crazy or what? Just because a business charges someone money for doing something you could learn to do on your own doesn’t mean it is a scam does it? Even if you could do it cheaper on your own, the customer has the option to not buy the product or service, but to call the business a scam is not right, is it?
Just because the customer does not understand interest rates, mortgages, HELOCS, and they don’t know how to use a mortgage calculator doesn’t make them dumb people that got taked advantaged of. If these customers buy a $3,500 product that helps them pay off debt sooner than normal, why should they be looked upon as if someone took advantage of them.
A homeowner could have learned to do it themselves for FREE, but they did have the time or the desire. Why should they be viewed as poor, un-educated customers that were taken advantage of?? They could have saved a lot more money if they learned it themselves, but they decided to pay someone else to do it and they still saved some time and money [but just not as much money if the learned/did it on their own for FREE]. Where is the scam?? How is that a scam??
17 Sep 08 at 12:30 pm
A final thought……..
If you had $3,600 in cash and you were forced to spend it, what would you do? You have only one choice and you must spend the $3,600 on 1 of 2 items. Item #1 is the MMA product from United First Financial for $3,500 and you would have $100.00 left over. Item #2 is a designer shoulder bag at Neiman Marcus. It’s a Nancy Gonzalez Gathered Croc Shoulder Bag for $3,600 [yes, this item really exists! check it out on Neiman Marcus' web site]. Which product is a scam?? Are both products legit? Will both products benefit you and/or that important female in your life?
If you bought the MMA product and became debt-free in 17.9 years instead of 30 years, was the $3,500 expense a good decision? In 17.9 years, you are debt-free and you mention it to your neighbor and your neighbor says, “You could have saved the $3500 and done it in 12.6 years if you learned how to do it yourself for free!” In 17.9 years, what would be the condition of that $3,600 shoulder bag?
Where is the scam? It is just how you view and value your time and your money, isn’t it?
Any comments???
17 Sep 08 at 2:57 pm
Kevin,
Here is your $30,000 HELOC answer FOR FREE….. that’s $0 in case you’re confused…
Taking $30,000 from your HELOC and applying it to your regular mortgage saves you NOTHING. IT COSTS YOU MONEY.
With very few exceptions, the interest rate on your HELOC will be higher than your mortgage, so only an idiot would borrow money at a higher interest rate to pay on a loan with a lower interest rate.
17 Sep 08 at 2:58 pm
Kevin - The MMA saves neither time nor money. It does not make paying off the mortgage easier. You can spend less time to save more money FOR FREE than by paying $3,500. The $3,500 fee only gets you a more cumbersome product that will save you less money on your mortgage that if you did it on your own. So there is no real value in paying the $3,500.
17 Sep 08 at 3:00 pm
Kevin - You keep repeating yourself. Please read the posts about UFF and MMA on this site before posting again. The answers to all your questions are here. You’re being repetitive.
17 Sep 08 at 3:28 pm
I can’t help but notice that all the comments left by UFF agents and STE drones are always innumerate, semi-literate, and barely coherent, as if they never made it past the 3rd grade. Not to mention demonstrating anger and impulse control problems.
Coincidence? I think not.
18 Sep 08 at 9:44 pm
Kevin is probably repeating himself b/c his basic question is never answered - only the same responses come back: “you can do it yourself” “Higher rate to pay off lower rate”, etc.
I NEVER posted UFF promotional materials because I don’t have any. I did provide a link to my personal analysis they ran - a pdf file. For people to judge as they wanted to. I also provided a link to an NBC local affiliate news story (the video) about them reviewing this product and saying it worked.
Those were both removed (multiple times) w/o anyone actually being able to see them. I’ll say again that it doesn’t help your case when you remove data that appears to counter your argument.
The one thing nobody is responding to is the way the HELOC is used. The way it’s described is that you move all of your normal banking into it. It has to be a very specific type of HELOC to work - one that has these characteristics (as provided by the agent):
-Must be an open ended Home Equity Line of Credit
-Must have an interest only payment option
-Must be attached to the primary residence in a second lien position
-Must be a variable rate
These things are ALL part of making the HELOC work to your advantage - more than “borrowing money at a higher rate to pay a lower rate loan.” This is the stuff that no one responds to on here - the actual details of the program’s application. I’m not going to go into the details of why those things are there b/c I doubt there would be any thoughtful responses. BUT there was a lot more data provided about the need for the HELOC and how it’s used that ANY response on here has dealt with.
I’m, like Kevin apparently, reviewing their claims and the SW. I have not bought (so I don’t need to justify the purchase) and I certainly don’t sell the product.
19 Sep 08 at 5:46 am
Kevin wrote:
« A final thought……..
If you had $3,600 in cash and you were forced to spend it, what would you do? You have only one choice and you must spend the $3,600 on 1 of 2 items. Item #1 is the MMA product from United First Financial for $3,500 and you would have $100.00 left over. Item #2 is a designer shoulder bag at Neiman Marcus. It’s a Nancy Gonzalez Gathered Croc Shoulder Bag for $3,600 [yes, this item really exists! check it out on Neiman Marcus' web site]. Which product is a scam?? Are both products legit? Will both products benefit you and/or that important female in your life?
If you bought the MMA product and became debt-free in 17.9 years instead of 30 years, was the $3,500 expense a good decision? In 17.9 years, you are debt-free and you mention it to your neighbor and your neighbor says, “You could have saved the $3500 and done it in 12.6 years if you learned how to do it yourself for free!” In 17.9 years, what would be the condition of that $3,600 shoulder bag?
Where is the scam? It is just how you view and value your time and your money, isn’t it?
Any comments??? »
———————
Kevin, I have some comments for you.
It’s strange you should limit the initial amount of choices in your hypothetical example to two (The MMA from UFF or a shoulder bag). Why not have a third option? Something like: “Going to your bank, consulting with your finantial advisor, and asking him how to invest 3.500$ so to become debt-free in less years”.
This third option becoming evident, of course, as soon as some UUF agent contacts you, and in case you have not thought of reducing your debt before, as this seems to be the case of most people who find the MMA a miraculous solution - they never have put their minds into the problem. It’s a simple “let’s see what my bank has to say about this - lets look at alternatives. 3.500$ sure is a lot of dough! ”
The MMA looks like a good decision only while and if you are not aware that you can spend much less money by not buying it.. It’s all about awareness, isn’t it? It’s not really the MMA (which is now proven to be a kind of hoax).
Now you tell me this: for all the UFF sellers that have seen the math proof for the DIY method (that one that shows you how it can be done without spending 3.500$ ont he MMA), how is it that they are going to approach their future clientes and live through it with a clear conscience?
You know, this whole situation makes me think about the “energy/vitamin-drink” MLM selling industry. They will approach people who never consumed these products on a regular basis and they will try to convince them that they are good for the heatlh. However, they fail to mention that there are much cheaper solutions - being sold just around the corner - which can perfectly substitute the MLM ones. In fact, they will try to sell their vitamin drinks as if they were the answer to all health problems.
Are the MLM products bad? I think not. They are just too much expensive, considering the alternatives. Once again, it’s about awareness.
Best Regards,
Pedro
19 Sep 08 at 8:30 am
Pedro,
Yeah, I know I kind of only gave two silly options in my hypothetical example. [I only made the choices like that because that is how a lot of customers make decisions. We can call customers and UFF agents stupid idiots all day long, but just look at the choices the majority of Americans have made. A salesperson can only educate a customer if the CUSTOMER WANTS to be educated.] Yes, if I added your third option, I agree 100% that consulting with a financial advisor makes the most sense.
However, I hope we all see one of the main issues. You said, “a third option only becomes evident as soon as a UFF agent contacts a customer.” How is it that the UFF agent is getting to the customer BEFORE the financial advisor gets to the same customer?? How is it that the UFF agent is getting the customer’s attention BEFORE the financial advisor?? This really needs to be explored!!! Some people prefer to post things like, “scam, stupid, idiot, etc.” However, there are some valuable lessons here about “how to sell and get a customer’s attention” and “a customer’s behavior towards price.” In this situation, the customer does not care about spending the $3500 and UFF agents are getting to customers BEFORE highly trained people like financial planners/advisors and mortgage professionals. Why doesn’t the customer care about spend $3500? Why aren’t the “smarter financial people” not being consulted for debt solutions?
The UFF agent is good at getting to the customer first, right?! After the UFF agent gets the customer to look at their debt situation, what is the UFF agent supposed to do next? A UFF agent [or any salesperson/business owner] is supposed to charge the highest price the maket will bear without lying, stealing, cheating, or breaking the law. It is the customer’s job to shop around and look for the lowest possible price for a solution to their problem. A great salesperson/business owner will know that there are cheaper alternatives to what they are selling [know your competition] and this salesperson better have an answer to handle that objection. As long as the salesperson handles the objection without lying, stealing, cheating, or breaking the law, the salesperson will have a clear conscience. Yes or no? Am I seeing this part correctly?
Here is the answer to the question you asked me. When a UFF agent analyzes a customer’s situation, it is the customer’s job to find other solutions and compare prices. If the customer decides to return to the UFF agent and says, “I think I found a way to do this on my own without paying the $3,500.” The UFF agent should compare the calculations and if the customer was able to calculate out a plan they can follow on their own without paying $3500, then the UFF agent should acknowledge the customer’s FREE plan as an option. If the UFF and the MMA product has anything else to offer over and above the customer’s FREE plan, at this point the UFF agent should detail the extra stuff the customer will get for $3500. If the customer does not see value in spending the additional $3500 above their own FREE plan, then a sale will not happen. The customer will walk, right?
Correct me if I am wrong, please. I do not know of any industry sales positions that require the salesperson to direct a potential customer to all of the places the customer could find the same product/service at a cheaper price or for free. A salesperson’s conscience should be clear if they are not lying, stealing, cheating, or breaking the law.
I agree, “awareness” is really the main issue. The customer’s “desire to be aware” plays a part too. As salespeople we can preach and demonstrate products/services all day long, but if a customer does not WANT to be aware of cheaper or better ways to do something that is an issue the customer must deal with in the end.
In the end, it is awareness. It is the customer’s duty to find alternatives. The salesperson’s duty is to try to get the highest possible price the market will bear without lying, stealing, cheating, or breaking the law. A UFF agent should feel comfortable acknowledging a customer if they are able to show better, more effective calculations on their own. There is nothing wrong if UFF has found a market for a $3500 product where the majority of their customers do not wish [or don't have the time] to be aware of FREE solutions. This is a capitalist country. A business offers their products/services in competition with other solutions. A business will stay in business long-term if they are offering the consumer long-term VALUE.
If there is no value in the UFF product, it will disappear shortly. However, with today’s economy, there seems to be a huge market for people wanting to get out of debt. It looks like people have no problem spending $3500 for a debt payoff solution and they are not concerned with searching for cheaper alternatives.
19 Sep 08 at 10:06 am
Tracy,
You mention that the MMA saves neither time nor money. Why are people spending $3500 for something worthless? What is it in their sales presentation that makes people think this product/service is worth $3500?
Have you sat thru a MMA presentation? I have not, but I have decided to sit thru an MMA presentation. I am not a stupid idiot for doing this, am I? I want to learn more about their sales approach and how they demonstrate value? I want to know why people are spending $3500 so easily during an economy like this?
In your opinion, is everyone purchasing this MMA product because they are stupid idiots?
In your opinion, if a customer uses the MMA product for all of their debts, will they pay off all of their debts SOONER than if they have no plan for debt payoff?
In your opinion, do customers respond more to FREE plans and solutions or do customers really enjoy and take pleasure telling their friends, co-workers, and neighbors they just bought some new expensive, dazzling thing with lots of bells and whistles?
In your opinion, would a customer rather say, “I just got back from an appointment with my financial planner. They gave me a spreadsheet and said follow that and you’ll be ok. If you don’t you will be filing for backruptcy in exactly 4.35 years!” Or, would a customer rather say, “I just bought this new software. Of course it was expensive! But this software tells me the exact date I will finish paying off ALL of my bills. Guess what! Three years from now if I make another major purchase using a NEW credit card, it will re-run the numbers and show me my NEW debt-free date! This new expensive MMA thing will even send me text messages with financial stuff to my cell phone!!”
Tracy couldn’t this be a way that UFF is adding value…..
As consumers some of us, we like to be dazzled with flashy, expensive things. On a first date, I could take a girl to McDonald’s on Sunday because cheeseburgers are only 0.49 cents. That is a financially sound decision, but it does not take into account the human side of the decision. Paying off debt is a financially sound decision, but for most consumers they are going to have to be razzled and dazzled into doing it in the most fashionable way possible! If they are going to pay off debt, they gotta look good doing it. If the highly trained experts in finance, mortgages, and advising want a piece of the action, they can’t call customers stupid idiots and try to make them pay attention to boring stuff for their own good!
I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like the UFF and the MMA product is tuned into what the majority of customers really want. The experts and the people that really know the numbers better than some UFF agents are more concerned with how much they know and not focused on what the customer just recently realized they wanted for $3500.
The experts were not really focusing on this particular market [debt payoff solutions] until UFF came along. Financial planners and advisors usually target people with extra income to invest not over-extended consumers. The planners/advisors are intelligent enough to run all sorts of numbers like paying off debt, but their market is really different than UFF’s. The planners/advisors can tell a consumer don’t do it UFF is a scam, but the planners/advisors may not realize that UFF just identified a customer looking for a debt solution.
The planners/advisors at this point should sell the customer something comparable to what UFF is offering. The problem is the planners/advisors are not ready because their main customers are not looking for debt solutions so they don’t have a SPECIFIC razzling/dazzling product that the UFF customer was willing to pay up to $3500 for. Everybody keeps thinking price is ALWAYS an issue and that it also determines someone’s intelligence. Price is an issue SOMETIMES, but it really depends on the product.
As for people in the mortgage business, they can do the numbers for paying off the mortgage, but they are in the business of creating debt!!! Are mortgage professionals now trying to advise people how to pay off the mortgage they just sold them? Mortgage professionals want customers to keep that loan for the entire term because they make more money in interest.
As for banking professionals, they make their money by gathering deposits and using all of the deposits to make loans [more debt]. The loans by these banks are all debt like credit cards, mortgages, etc. Are we expecting those in banking to start advising clients how to pay down their debt when the bank actually makes more money the longer the customer keeps the bank’s loan outstanding?
The only ones really competing against UFF are debt counseling places and they usually charge a monthly fee until all debts are paid. As the years go by while using their services, I am sure the monthly fees will add up to more than a couple hundred dollars. A customer could “do this themselves” without using a debt counselor, but I bet you they have a sales pitch why it is better to use them instead of doing it yourself!
Isn’t UFF just going after a market using razzle and dazzle with technolgy?
19 Sep 08 at 11:06 am
Kevin write: “Why are people spending $3500 for something worthless? What is it in their sales presentation that makes people think this product/service is worth $3500?”
Kevin, I think you FINALLY are getting an understanding! They’re paying $3,500 because they’ve been mislead about what it does. They’re paying because they don’t understand. That is the whole point of discussing it here… So that potential buyers can learn the real truth about what they would be buying with UFF… something that wastes lots of money and plenty of time.
19 Sep 08 at 12:09 pm
Eric - Every time you’ve responded here, you’ve provided a link to UFF propaganda, and this time was no different.
The characteristics of the HELOC that you’ve mentioned CREATE NO BENEFIT FOR THE CONSUMER. Those characteristics may be required but they don’t save the consumer any money.
I’ve discussed over and over how the HELOC is used. You should read more on this site about it. Yes, you “move all of your normal banking into it” which saves you about $20 a month BEST CASE SCENARIO. For most people, they will save less. That small savings doesn’t come close to covering the $3,500 cost of the MMA program… which is the biggest reason why IT’S NOT WORTH THE MONEY.
The money shuffle doesn’t do enough to justify the cost.
I’m sorry you don’t understand why it makes no sense to borrow at a higher rate and use the money to pay off a loan with a lower interest rate. This is a basic financial principle. Go to any finance site (or use your common sense, for that matter) and you will see that a higher interest rate costs a consumer more money than a lower interest.
No money shuffle in the world can nullify that basic principle based upon basic math. Surely you understand that?
19 Sep 08 at 7:04 pm
Tracy, I find it interesting how you can say “Every time you’ve responded here, you’ve provided a link to UFF propaganda, and this time was no different. ” when in actual fact I provided NO LINKS in my posting at all.
You come off sounding like the broken record, stating things (multiple times) that I have not done. Even if I HAD posted a link to an NBC news broadcast (which I referenced), how can you say that was UFF propaganda? Did they pay the station to review the product, try it out and then lie to an entire network viewing area?
I highly doubt that.
19 Sep 08 at 8:19 pm
LOL @ Eric.
Yet again you provided your propaganda link, and you are officially done posting here. You are inserting your link in the website field of the comment form, even after you’ve been asked several times to stop.
The video with the news story included lots of propaganda, thus my deeming it propaganda.
Thanks for playing.
22 Sep 08 at 7:58 pm
ok the nbc story only confirmed that this scheme works the software does what it is too do period I am more concerned that the uff agents in orlando FL are posing as sub teachers stealing phone numbers from student roles ,and targeting them as potential agents it would appear the adults are not falling for this over priced spreadsheet.
22 Sep 08 at 8:42 pm
Joe, the MMA “works” only in that it will pay off a mortgage. It is slower, riskier and more expensive than accelerating the mortgage yourself.
What is this Orlando scheme you’re referencing? That’s Sue Copening (aka “Bob Trout”) territory.
22 Sep 08 at 8:50 pm
OOOOHHHH - As in “Team Sue” who has tried to post numerous insults and promotional items here?
22 Sep 08 at 8:56 pm
The same. Google her and see. She was caught posting as “Bob Trout” on Fatwallet.com.
22 Sep 08 at 9:15 pm
well both my teenagers in high school have recived phone calls from an agent who wanted to hire them as a sales force untill they turn 18 then they can be independent agents i spoke with this man who first told me that he was a retiree then told me he was a coach at a high school not in my area then finally admited he was a substitute teacher with the orange county public school system this is the way he would have gotten my childrens names and phone number I would say this practice is somewhat unethical.
22 Sep 08 at 9:26 pm
Likely just to distribute flyers. Targeting students as “downlines” would be low, but that hasn’t stopped UFF agents before. Who would believe an 18-year-old over their mortgage broker, anyway? Kids are recruited into Cutco to sell overpriced knives. I can’t see even the dimmest bulb buying a $3500 mortgage product from a teenager.
If true, I gotta believe that would go beyond unethical - right to illegal. It can’t be legal for a teacher to access personal student information for the purposes of recruiting. But for now, it’s just an anecdote in the comments of a blog. Do you have the name of the agent?
22 Sep 08 at 9:33 pm
no no he wanted them to go out ,and make sales calls he would pay 100.00 comission on each sale i do have his name and I will have a very lengthy conversation with the district in the morning even if he got the kids to give him the phone number for what ever reason would be inappropiate
22 Sep 08 at 9:47 pm
I must also say that I had not heard of this company I have however used the method of pay a couple of hundred more on the house every month an low ,and behold you have paid it off early ,and you saved some interest I can use my credit cards for free if I pay them off each month I always thought I just had common sense with this new software I won’t have to think anymore!!
22 Sep 08 at 9:54 pm
“I must also say that I had not heard of this company I have however used the method of pay a couple of hundred more on the house every month an low ,and behold you have paid it off early ,and you saved some interest I can use my credit cards for free if I pay them off each month I always thought I just had common sense with this new software I won’t have to think anymore!!”
If you bought it, I’d say your common sense escaped.
22 Sep 08 at 9:59 pm
oh please I was born in the morning just not this morning I would have to be brain dead to buy into this hog wash.
23 Sep 08 at 6:05 pm
I will say, it’s unfair for arguments sake that only one side of the argument is being linked. It’s only fair that this NBC local affiliate news story is able to be posted, because afterall, it’s not from United First Financial, it’s from the news. If that’s propaganda, then so is any link from scam.net or wherever else people are pulling things from. All I’m saying to the moderator is, this is a discussion so be fair to both parties and let them share their news links and even thier analysis with you if they like.
23 Sep 08 at 6:46 pm
Charles - I do not allow promotional materials for MLMs to be posted here, period. The “news story” in question is a UFF promotional video that includes a news story. And as I’ve said, promotional materials are not allowed.
23 Sep 08 at 7:03 pm
Is it too much to ask for math from people who sell a mortgage acceleration product? Forget videos, forget “I’m going to pay my mortgage off in…” claims.
Post examples, not summaries. Show us how this wonderful mortgage accelerator achieves these wonderful claimed results without increasing monthly payments.
All I really want is all the money movements for even one month. Income, expenses, transfers between accounts, and dates on all of it. Let’s see one example month. I know the MMA software won’t give an example month, so how about a UFF agent post their transaction records for one month? No names or account identifiers required.
23 Sep 08 at 7:11 pm
Well Craig you know you really can’t give an opinion on the product unless you’ve used it yourself because otherwise you’re ignorant or unintelligent and you’re giving an opinion on something you really don’t know about so I suggest you pony up $3,500 because you really can’t talk about it unless you use it and then if you use it you would know how to move your money and you would see that what I say is true because everyone knows that UFF works because…. I SAID SO.
24 Sep 08 at 7:17 am
wow, that was a lot of reading from top to bottom. when you google mortgage accelerators, there are many, and all have the same presentation, cost ranging from $325 to $3,500 and many prices inbetween, a hundred or so dollar each increments. What does the high cost one have the low cost software do not? thank you
24 Sep 08 at 7:51 am
Higher commissions that are spread between more uplines.
All mortgage accelerators are equally pointless.
24 Sep 08 at 9:16 am
Tracy,
Here is a link that is probably not classified as propaganda…
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/nbc-news-report-the-money-merge-account/352969971
Would this be considered an objective news report and not UFF propaganda?
The NBC news reporter says that they have a few people testing out the software and tracking the results. Isn’t that how a product is supposed to be reviewed BEFORE “blanket statements” are made?
24 Sep 08 at 9:19 am
Are they all MLM? So a guy instead of buying one for $3,500 can get the same thing for $325 and get the same results?
24 Sep 08 at 9:28 am
Kevin - Sure, I’ll count that as a news report. Unfortunately, they bought the UFF sales pitch hook, line, and sinker. They didn’t stop to do the math to see that anyone can pay off their mortgage faster and cheaper without UFF. So I don’t know that you can legitimately call this an “objective” report. It doesn’t appear that they looked at any alternatives. And sure, with UFF, you can pay off your mortgage faster than if you stayed on your regular amortization schedule from the mortgage company. No one is disputing that. We’re just saying that there are far better ways to do it, and they don’t cost $3,500.
24 Sep 08 at 10:27 am
John,
I doubt all are MLM, but that doesn’t make the product any more appealing.
“So a guy instead of buying one for $3,500 can get the same thing for $325 and get the same results?”
Better yet, pay $0 and get better results.
24 Sep 08 at 11:54 am
Most all of them use the channel 3 news video too. How do we pay zero?
24 Sep 08 at 11:58 am
Pay $0 = Don’t buy UFF MMA and instead (for free) just apply any extra cash you have at the end of the month to your mortgage. Voila. Better results (because you’re not wasting $3,500 up front) and did I mention it’s free?
24 Sep 08 at 12:10 pm
Tracy that is what i kinda thought the zero was. But is all those companies whether they are direct or mlm, selling between 300 to 3,500,is it the same software with different logos or company names attached? what does one have the other does not? thank you
24 Sep 08 at 12:11 pm
As far as I know, John, they each have their own independently developed software. BUT - The concept is the same for all of them.
24 Sep 08 at 12:28 pm
Exactly. These “mortgage accelerators” all assume you are too stupid to pay extra to your mortgage.
This is an important point: Whatever you pay for a M.A., you will come out behind simple prepayment by the cost of the M.A., plus interest. If the M.A. has you using a higher rate HELOC or credit card, you will come out even further ahead of the M.A.
Here is an email conversation I recently had with some UFF agents:
http://scam.com/showthread.php?t=46373
These agents aren’t qualified to spell “mortgage”. Their parent companies make it painfully clear they are not “mortgage advisors”, and what little training they do have is just plain wrong. They believe a 6% mortgage rate is actually in the range of 500%. They believe mortgages are compound interest. They believe mortgages are “front loaded”. They are an army of independent contractors selling a useless product they don’t understand to other people who don’t understand.
All these people need to know is the more money you can apply to your mortgage, the faster you will pay it off. Period. Buy a big screen TV? Add a month or more to your mortgage. Want to know exactly how much more? Go to an online mortgage calculator. It’s that simple, that free.
24 Sep 08 at 12:55 pm
craig, where do i get the DIY im not familiar with that. thank you
24 Sep 08 at 2:48 pm
DIY = Do It Yourself
Basically, at the end of the month, pay your bills. Whatever amount is left over, above an appropriate contingency amount, is added to your mortgage payment.
That’s it. That’s all you need to beat any mortgage accelerator.
24 Sep 08 at 3:31 pm
This truely is the Bottom Line! Wisdom has spoken! also a DIY is sorta like a FYI, thanks for the update, I get it!
24 Sep 08 at 10:28 pm
It will always be $3,500 is alot to pay, especially when you compare it to your $90 quicken or whatever you’d like to use. People are going to be arguing back and forth that this is a great company or that if it’s a scam and it’s going to run on and on just like any debate and not get anywhere. If United First Financial was a scam, they’d be out of business by now with how much attention they’ve attracted.
25 Sep 08 at 8:32 am
Charles - Really? Enron was a total fraud and they were in business for years. Just goes to show you that a scam can exist for a long time!
25 Sep 08 at 9:07 am
Charles, by the attention argument, if the MMA did what agents say and allowed you to “pay off your home in as little as 1/2 to 1/3 the time”, they should be HUGE by now. It’s been over two years. They should be the Google of the mortgage industry.
They aren’t. They’re a player in a mortgage acceleration niche that has no legitimate reason to be. If it wasn’t for misinformation, half-truths and gullible clients, the niche wouldn’t exist.
I’ve heard of between 60,000 and 100,000 clients. Assuming UFF makes about $1000 per sale, the founders have pocketed the bulk of the $60M to $100M, and are laughing their asses off at their army of dim-witted “independent contractor” front-line salespeople. These agents make a few hundred bucks per difficult sale, and only their uplines see a good income.
Agent blogs are now going weeks or months without updates. The MMA community blogs like “The Whole Truth” and “Both Sides of the Coin” are equally dead. One agent I’ve been talking to has stopped selling the MMA, and is now selling insurance. Other agent sites have gone offline as they (presumably) stop paying their hosting bills.
By UFF marketing, the MMA should be huge. It’s dying. It was all hype.
25 Sep 08 at 11:47 am
His 2nd sentence says it all…”I did some quick research and came to the conclusion…”
Quick research with preconceived notions by cynical minds typically leads to inaccurate conclusions…case in point.
Y